Kingdom of Pets

Posted by SarahWeb
Feb 5, 2010

Hello

Not ever posted before but I read and search often so thank you to the advice you have already given me.

Hopefully you can offer some good advice now - I have 2 main issues, but first our history: our male "Riley" is a GSD and is 13months old, from a working dog breed and intact, we have had him since he was 8 weeks, I work from home and so he is around me all day and my partner in the evening. very well tempered rather nippy as a puppy but now the most lovable dog ever he is very energetic, and gets lots of walks - between 40 mins to 1.5 hours 3 times a day. We feed him Oscars pet food which is amazing and we have been asked to Breed him due to his breeding, coat condition and temperment

So our problems:

1) he used to be pretty good at coming back to recall until about 3 weeks ago when I was up the common with lots of other dogs and he just didn't want to stop playing so wouldn't come back - at all - luckily all was ok but it was the start of something... then yesteday was in a field playing and in the far far distance there was another dog - now so far away that I only saw a black speck! he charged off to play - I can't even tell you if he got to them as I couldn't see that far and indeed run quick enough to catch up! what ever happened he then came back into field and ran towards me - mean time I have been calling and shouting - in a good high pitched voice to get him to stop and come back (similar noises to gek gek with camels!!)

So he came back to me - but not so that I could grab him

Then unfortunatly another pack of dogs came into field behind us and off he went again - luckily I did know this guy and he has excellent control of his dogs so only a short scrap and all was calm again

When I finally got him back on the lead - calling happily saying good boy WHEN he came back - I then frog marched home and put him in the kitchen no food or eye contact for a few hours - he certainly knew something was wrong - but would he know what he did wrong?

So - what can I do - is it his teenage years? do I go back to recall on a long lead training? how do I tell him off but still get him coming back?

Whilst its not a very bad thing it only would take 1 road or 1 dog owner that was not happy with the behaviour (understandbly) and things could get nasty!

He is very good with other dogs and will play with any dog - whether they growl at him or not - he doesn't seem to retaliate but they other owners don't know that !!!

so this leads me onto 2) when he does come back or at the end of the walk he will not come close enough to get the lead on - its like he dances just out of reach!! this has been getting worse for a month plus, so you tend to lunge to grab him or trick him by walking through a gap so that its small enough that he HAS to come close enough to get past - ie you grab him - I know not ideal!

I have just started to walk left saying this way - once follows or goes in front I change direction and keep doing that until he gets close enough to get onto the lead - praising all the time. Or playing with 2 balls getting him to sit and wait - grab collar say good boy - throw ball and repeat and on 3rd time put on lead - but I have only been doing that for 2 days

So really 2 problems, 1) recall when there is ANY other dog around he just wants to play! and 2) getting him to come and come to heel

Oh I always have treats even raw beef doesn't work - seemingly that dog is more exciting than anything!!!

Anyway any tips would be fantastic as I am trying not to get stressed when we walk but its getting hard as I know it could all go horribly wrong!

Thank you in advance, sorry for the long post - going on the more info the better!!

Sarah

Posted by kjd
Feb 6, 2010

Sarah,

I am afraid your GSD was rather confused as to why you were punishing him. If the dog comes to you, you should never discipline him -- you cannot explain to him "I am not punishing you for coming to me, but for not doing it a few minutes ago!"

Now, I learned this from other people, but it is excellent advice: when your dog is out playing and you call him, does that always mean the end of play? What you should do is call him, before you are ready to stop the play, praise him or toss him a treat, then tell him to go on playing. (Toss the treat because he is smart enough not to come close. Later, you will be able to pet him and treat him from your hand, then let him go back to the others.) You want coming to you to be a good thing. (I try to teach my dogs, no matter what you do, if you come to me you will get treats and/or praise. With me is the safest place to be.}

Until you feel he is solid on his recall, always walk him on a leash. You are correct, one road with a car, and that is it. I've heard there is no such thing as a street-wise dog, just some lucky ones.

You can go back to the long line to remind him what come means. But remember, he has learned that "come" means "playtime over." Spend a lot of time with calling and releasing. You can also do it at home: call him to eat (kind of hard, since they usually are at your heels at meal time), call him to play, call him just to tell him what a great dog he is. Then let him go about his business.

Let us know how the training goes,
kjd

Posted by SarahWeb
Feb 9, 2010

kjd

Thanks and yes we have never told him off when he comes - its just it seems bad that when he has done something bad - run off etc etc he doesn't get to know that is wrong.. that is where I am confused as to how to deal with it

We have been working on the come heel sit touch collar go play etc for a while now - just seems that as soon as there is another dog around everything else goes to pot

We will keep with what you suggest, 90% he is great its just that 10% that he isn't and then that can cause stress on the next walk which we try to make sure it doesn't but hey we are only human!!

Will keep doing what we are doing and hope that it has some effect

thank you I knew there was no magic answer but was hoping for something we hadn't thought of, for once I wanted to be wrong lol

will keep you updated - thank you
Sarah

Posted by kjd
Feb 9, 2010

Sarah,

The only way I know of that you can teach him refusing to come is wrong is to go get him and take him back to where you called him. "Come" is a magical command. You cannot punish a dog for not coming if he comes to you (finally), but it is hard to punish a dog that isn't near you! I suspect that is why some people use shock collars. But why turn "come" into a forced order, when it should be an invitation to be near you?

Albert Payson Terhune wrote about his collies. (I don't approve of his attitude towards dogs vs. humans.) He is from a very old school, and most trainers would disapprove of it. However, I have used his method of teaching "come" as a command to always be obeyed. He would call the dog for something the dog didn't want to do, like a bath. The dog knew he was going to get the bath if he came. Terhune would call and call until the dog finally gave up and came for the bath. I used this when my dog had mange on her face and I had to put this horrible stuff on it. Neither of us liked the stuff. I would take out the bottle and she would leave. I'd sit and call her, bottle in plain sight. This is breaking all training rules since I kept calling "come," "come," "come." She'd start towards me, see the bottle, and leave, over and over. Then, finally, she would come for the medicine. I'd love her up and put it on and love her up again. Today, they tell you to go get the dog if you have to do something distasteful like this, but it did work and the dog never lost trust in me. Note, Sarah, that neither I nor Terhune punished the dog for refusing to come -- unless you consider the constant calling a punishment!
kjd

[Interesting but useless factoid: Terhune's books made my sister a collie lover but turned me off of them. I never understood why, until I read them as an adult -- it was his placing dogs before people.]

Posted by SarahWeb
Feb 9, 2010

Thank you and yes that is the only way I know to do it - but when he is miles away the chance of me getting him is so slim its laughable! We did long lead training today and we came every damn time lol but then there were no other dogs around so it was easy

I can see what you mean on the collie training and actually its kind of what I do - yelling come until he does - but its not as effective as reward training although usually he is SO food orientated but when he does want to come (ie stop playing so you mentioned) then not even fresh steak does it lol!

I will stay with the come - play - come - play and hope that some of that goes into his brain!

We are hoping that is best mate (who is in season) will be free to play again soon and that does help - he seem sto miss company of other dogs - so we try to meet up with playmates as often as we can but at the risk of puppies not this time lol

Thank you - at least I am not going mad and its "normal" or rather I am not doing anything too wrong!

Sarah

Posted by kjd
Feb 9, 2010

Sarah,

Try doing some of that long-line training when there are other dogs around. Since he is so good without distractions, he needs some distractions.

Just for fun: this weekend, I had to "train" my dog to poop! The snow is as high as she is. She made herself a running path and was willing to pee, but went 24 hours without a single poop! I was afraid she'd burst, so the next time she was out and had peed, I wouldn't let her in. She ran up and down her path a few more times, then finally pooped. She now has the idea -- you cannot let a little snow stop you. Thank heavens, since we are supposed to get another 10 to 20 inches and that will put it well over her head. As long as the electricity doesn't go out again, I'm happy.

Good luck,
kjd

Posted by DogsInShanghai
Feb 10, 2010

HI Sarah,

have you tried calling "come" and running away? my dogs come most of the time, but if there is something really interesting (cat, other dog), sometimes they're deaf , only in some situations one is hesitant to run away from the dog, but it usually works.
try concentration training with him. you take a treat, call his name and as soon as he looks into your eyes give him a treat. try it at home first (3 times a day about 5-10 repetitions) then outside no distraction, then outside with distraction, try to get him to keep eye contact longer and longer), my dogs are doing well at home now and they are staring at me, outside its still a challenge. this way when you call him he will look at you then see you running off and should react.
try and let him play on a long lead until he listens to you, its a little inconveniant, but the only way I could get my dogs to come when they're buisy playing.
good luck!

Posted by SarahWeb
Feb 10, 2010

DogsInShanghai

Thanks I will try that we do that anyway but can certainly step it up - its usually a "look at me" command - when we are out walking - to heel etc - but will step it up as i said

And yes I def do the running away part - he used to hate not having me in his sights - but last I ran out of field and up the lane!!! So that didn't work - it might just have been that case but still puts the fear up you!!

And yes KJD I think its when other dogs are around - he tends to go a bit loopy with that which we always knew, he just loves playing!

Will give it a go thanks for the advice

Sarah

Posted by kjd
Feb 10, 2010

Sarah,

Just remember to keep upping the distractions whenever he gets good at a lower level. Also do that training in various places -- outside a grocery store is often good for the attention as there is so much commotion. You can also do short recalls (6 feet) at the store. I wouldn't try anything longer as you want to be sure he cannot be hurt.

Enjoy!
kjd

13mth GSD Recall/Running Off Help