Kingdom of Pets

Posted by SueMac
Sep 11, 2010

I have a two year old German Shepherd who is absolutely wonderful with people, but a nightmare if she sees another dog. She has to be kept on a lead when out as last time she was off lead, playing with the ball, another dog appeared and she went for it, got it by the neck and was shaking it. The dog was unharmed, but very scared and we have not been able to let her off since. She has been for 3 weeks training at a residential centre, costing us a fortune, which has not helped. We have tried halti's, gentle leaders, choke chains and even a prong collar (only tried this once, couldn't bear to use it on her again - she went mad anyway and her bark came out as a squeak!). She has pulled me over twice, the second time I was hurt quite badly, so now I can't take her out alone but have to be accompanied by my son or husband. I think the fact that she doesn't have enough exercise exacerbates the problem, but don't know what I can do, as she is so strong.
Any ideas gratefully received!

Posted by KOPCaroline
Sep 11, 2010

Hey SueMac,

Have you had the dog since it was a pup, or did you recently get her? Did she do puppy classes when she was little, or obedience training? How well trained is she now?

Training can be a useful distraction when other dogs come into the area, and German Shepherds are very train/work- oriented dogs, so they tend to really enjoy it and respond well when you ask them to. Have you tried giving commands when other dogs come into view? Have her sit, or lie down, anything to get her focused on you, not the other dog. Praise her when she listens, and try to keep her attention so that you are maintaining eye contact with her the whole time. If she starts to look or lean toward the other dog give a sharp "no", snap your fingers (or clap hands, use a clicker, whatever) and give her a command again. Let her do her own thing only when the dog has disappeared.

Do you know if the dogs she goes after are also female? Interdog aggression tends to be directed moreso at the same sex.

Does she show any other signs of aggression, guarding/barking when people pass your property? Trying to be at all dominant at home (leaning on you, trying to get through doors first, or blocking your access to doors, etc)? These can help give ideas to more specific ways to fix the aggression.

Do you have friends who'd be willing to walk their dogs past your property, and get her used to seeing other dogs, but not be able to get at them, since haltis, etc don't seem to be enough? You want to have her around other dogs as much as possible, to desensitize her to their presence, but if more controlling leads are not working you should try keeping her behind a barrier until she is calmer about the situation.

Its only a start, if you can give me a bit more information about her behaviour, I'll be able to offer a bit more advice. Just be patient, and start on the training and exposure

Posted by kjd
Sep 12, 2010

Another tool that might help is a muzzle. This will give YOU confidence that she cannot hurt the other dog.

kjd

Posted by SueMac
Sep 12, 2010

Hi

Thanks for your comments - but I can't get her to concentrate on me when another dog is around - she is absolutely out of control. She goes down, ears up and stares at them - then suddenly will lunge for them.
We have had her since a puppy and I realise all the mistakes we have made, from being told a million times - just a shame that so many of the people who point them out so vociferously are not able to tell me what to do about it now! Surely there must be a way we can rectify this, as she is only 2?
She goes mad if any dog goes past the house - instead of shouting at her I have now started to just pull her away and shut her in her corner until she lies down and stops. This is the first day, so hopefully she'll learn eventually to stop because I tell her to - at the moment she just ignores me. I have also just started to stop her from going through any door before me.
She jumps up and makes a huge fuss when anyone comes in - so we are now going to ignore her until she settles before acknowledging her. This is something I always do anyway, but I am now battling my husband and son to do the same. I think they have now realised what a monster we have made!
In answer to your question about training, she will come, sit, lie down, fetch and leave a ball, sit and look at a treat until told she can have it, paw etc. indoors, with no distractions - she's very good at catching and will hunt out her ball/treats from the garden if we hide them for her. Out of doors, different story - pulls on lead (although a bit better for me than my husband), and the nightmare, as you already know, is when another dog comes into view. It doesn't seem to matter whether male or female - she particularly hates little white dogs, but none are particularly favoured out as friends. Even dogs she used to play with as a puppy she will go for now.
I have bought a muzzle, but I do hate the thought of putting it on her as it holds the mouth shut - and I worry about her breathing etc.
My gut feeling is that she is absolutely trainable - we just need to know the method.

Posted by kjd
Sep 12, 2010

Sue,

There are two types of muzzle. One is more of a cage and will definitely allow your dog to open her mouth. Even the other should let her mouth open. When working with aggressive (fearful) dogs, I was actually nipped by one in the black muzzle. She should be able to open her mouth wide enough to take treats and lap water, just not take a bite out of another dog.

My gut feeling is, regardless of what others may have told you, this is NOT something you caused, is, in no way, your fault.

I hope you can get her over it. But, PLEASE, don't add to your concern by feeling it is your fault. It isn't.

kjd

Posted by KOPCaroline
Sep 13, 2010

Hey again,

I wholeheartedly agree, its nothing to blame yourself for at all, and it is fixable. I think you're on a great start with re-learning some dominance concerns (walking through doors, calming down when you tell her to), and I really like your method of not paying attention to her when you come home. Keep up with these and other dominance training (feeding her after yourself, she gets toys when you give them to her, etc).

This and the tips above should be a great start to helping her. Once she realized you're her alpha dog, she'll listen to you more outside of the house, and then you can really start on desensitization. If she "watches" TV you could try putting on Animal Planet or something with dogs, and exposing her to the noises and sight of them that way, until you feel ok taking her out of the house.

Again, use her training to your advantage. Have fun training sessions with her daily, so she learns that listening to you gets her yummy treats and great pats! Again, this will make her more likely to listen to you on a walk in the future. I do think a muzzle of some sort is a good idea until she can walk without lunging, etc.

You want to form the dominant-owner bond with her, so that she knows to respect what you say. I think the two of you will be fine, and her behaviour is totally reversible, its just going to take time and patience. If I think of any other good advice I'll post, and hopefully some other users can offer helpful hints.

Posted by kjd
Sep 13, 2010

Sue,

How long has this aggression been going on? Did it just recently start? You say she used to play with other dogs when she was a puppy. Do you remember whether she was always the top dog?

kjd

Posted by SueMac
Sep 16, 2010

She has had this aggression now for well over a year.

Last year, in September we sent her to a residential training centre for 3 weeks. The day we collected her we watched her walk to heel, off lead, past another dog and I had about an hour's session with the trainer being told what to do. We were given a 3 week plan - 1st week, train in garden, 2nd week out with no distractions, 3rd week to the park. It seemed to be going OKish, but gradually as her confidence returned, so did the problem. They trained her with a choke chain collar. On the day we got her, she was very quiet - no noise at all when she saw us. but in the car on the way home, she saw a dog and tried to bark - it transpired she had lost her voice. She also seemed to have a cold or something and wasn't that well.
I tried again with the halti yesterday, but she seems to be even worse with that - saw a dog over the road and went berserk, it was all I could do to hold on to her - we came straight home, had only been out for a few minutes, could have cried!
When we got her, she was the last of the litter - so don't know if she was top dog.
I really think that her lack of exercise makes her even more of a problem on the lead when we first go out, but because I am not strong enough to hold her and my husband is away most of the week, i am struggling to know what to do about it.

Posted by kjd
Sep 17, 2010

Oh, SueMac,

Please don't send her back to that residential place. I doubt she lost her voice barking! I suspect they were very aggressive in using the choke chain. They may even have used shock collars. You both love her and are not as strong as the people in that place. I doubt you are psychologically able to hurt your dog by doing what they did (and they aren't going to tell you exactly what they did). When you first picked her up, she was afraid to react to another dog. As she regained her confidence with you, she went right back (perhaps worse?) because she was no longer more afraid of the human than the dog.

Try training her to use a basket muzzle. Years ago, when I was in Venice, Italy, I noticed all the dogs were muzzled with this type. They wore them all day and didn't seem the worse for it. If she wears this muzzle and gets away, she won't be able to hurt the other dog. Since she cannot hurt them, any fighting may be normal dog fighting and she may learn other dogs aren't scary.

I cannot promise it will solve her aggression problem. It will protect other dogs (and people that might try to separate them). It will reduce your stress level. Meanwhile, you might take her to an animal behavioralist to see if that can help.

I have a very strong distrust of training that I cannot see. There are too many "trainers" that use abusive techniques when the owner is out of sight.

kjd

Posted by KOPCaroline
Sep 18, 2010

Hey Sue,

I"m sorry you had such a short, upsetting walk. I wish I knew more ways you could let your dog interact with others without being so public. If you could find a "buddy dog" who could work one on one with yours it might be a way to ease into less tension in public. Do you know anyone with a dog who'd be willing to give it a go?

As far as outright interdog aggression, the method I'm most familiar with, as I said, is desensitization. It sounds like it will be a hard road if she's so berserk, but with a lot of patience it could work.

Have you considered asking your vet for sedatives of some sort to calm her down? If you explain our situation and what you're after, they could make suggestions better tailored to your dog, but sedatives and relaxants can work wonders for extremely wound up dogs. I wonder if they could help yours?

Posted by MaxHollyNoah
Sep 18, 2010

Hi SueMac,

I agree with kjd about not trusting residential training centers. Training is the means to build trustful relationship between the dog and the owner, YOU. Dogs are not like cars or some kinds of machines, which can be repaired or adjusted by a technitian and you can get it back in a perfect condition. Even if the trainer could have trained your dog to his satisfaction, it does not mean that the dog would behave the same way when he comes back to live with you again.

I have a similar dog as yours. Mine has been totally lovable to people but used to get aggressive to other dogs. He even bit some dogs and I had to pay vet bills. I think it was mostly due to fear and lack of socilazation that he needed before we adopted him.

As KOPcaroline says desensitization is the only way you can get him over it. In my case, I discussed Noah's case with my dog trainer and asked her to include him in her class. I told all his classmates' parents about Noah's problem and promised that I would have him under control if their dogs are also leashed during the class. He started from a puppy class (although he was already over 2 yr old) and graduated from the advance class. It was good for him to meet with so many dogs under strict supervision and control. He also built his confidence through performing well in those classes.

After his aggression got somehow improved I started fostering dogs from shelters. I carefully chose dogs that can not be any threat to Noah. Usually middle sized timid female dogs (not playful jumpy ones) worked the best. By sharing the house with those foster dogs Noah got more and more used to be around other dogs. I still feel a little uncomfortable to take him to off-leash parks unless it is very early in the morning. Noah can not stand dogs without manners (those just approach so innocently and try to jump on him in a playful mode). It has been more than 3 long years since we started working on his aggression. In fact, that was the reason why I purchased this program. I don't use "Alpha Training" myself since I don't see any problems due to dominance in my 3 dogs and my foster dogs. I would rather establish heart to heart communication and trust with my dogs. They are masters of reading my mind and mood

Anyway, I just wanted to throw my 2 cents. Good luck

Dog Aggression