I love dogs too, but

Hi Annie. Thanks for your answer. Lots of wisdom there!

I'll let you know how I feel about
dogs not being pack animals (why should they be different from cats)

and why dogs should prefer democracy to hierarchy (they can't vote, can they?)

and that dogs are belivers in equality among the family members and pets (try to tell that to the zeta dog)

after reading the book.

Tom
Note to my self: " Remember! Keep an open mind! Keep an open mind - Dummkopf"

Hi.
I have read Barry Eatons book Dominance; Fact or fiction. And I am very dissapointed!

The only thing it has triggered is a thought about the domestic pack: "Perhaps the humans are not part of the pack"? Perhaps they are Super dogs and super cats and super horses, over and above, but not part of!
There must be a reason that they are so easily willing to obey us. Is it perhaps only because we are Food and Shelter Bringers, or is it maybe because they actually like us?

Tom

Hi DebbieG.

I read your essay and I totally agree with you. We should try all kinds of methods in order to find the one that fits you and your dog the best.

I personally don't agree with the pack rules and Alpha techniques. I have had 4 dogs that lived and 2 of them still live with us peacefully and harmlessly. They are allowed on the couch and bed, they always eat before us, they go out the door first, we play tug with them and let them win sometimes, etc. We do everything the Alpha Techniques say don't but my dogs are very obedient and very nice to kids and babies.

They know they are different from us humans and they know they should obey even to kids and should not hurt them. They don't need to be told repeatedly they are the bottom of the pack (I don't think dogs don't understand why we are implementing those pack rules anyway). They have choices to do differently but they choose the way they are trained to, not because they are forced to. This is a big difference. Dogs can choose to a certain behaviors among all kinds of behaviors. That is the biggest advantage of training using rewards. For example, when I take my dogs for walk, I let them go out the door first but I don't let my dogs get out the car until I tell them to do so because of their safety. When I open the car door, they can jump out the car if they want to but they don't because they choose not to. Do they understand it is unsafe to jump out? I don't think so. But they know it is better to listen to my mom (me) because she told us not to.

We, humans, don't need to be the Alpha, or pack leader. If you and your dog can build a relationship based on trust and confidence, they listen to you, they never be aggressive to you. At the end of the day, they know they are well fed, well loved, well treated here so why do they need to make us an enemies? It is us humans who should think again why we treat our best friends as the worst enemies?:confused:

Hi debbieG,

Thank you for your comment. I am very interested in dog training and dog behavior correction methods so I will appreciate comments from a lot of people.

As I said at the beginning of my last message "We should try all kinds of methods in order to find the one that fits you and your dog the best", there is no almighty method or magic wand because, as you said, each dog is different and each owner has different rules, boundaries and expectations.

Yes, my dogs are very nice dogs, not perfect but close to perfect to me, maybe because my expectations are not as too high, compared to some owners. I see and treat my dogs as dogs, not as wolves, nor human kids (I never raised wolves but I have raised 3 kids so I know how it is).

What I treasure the best with my dogs is our relationship. That is why I personally don't agree with the Alpha techniques. I think I have established a very good relationship with my dogs, using positive reinforcement training. My dogs are rescued border collie mixes so I have no idea what kind of socialization they had when they were puppies. In fact, Holly had a separation anxiety and was scared of men and sticks. Noah is very good with people but gets afraid of big dogs and shows some fear aggression. We are working on it.

Considering their not so happy puppyhood and possible distrust to people, they have grown to be very happy and gentle dogs. They listen to me since they trust me. They now let anybody take their food away, look into their mouth, touch their paws, etc. because they have developed trust to people.

I never used the Alpha techniques but I read the book and found it not my cup of tea. I want my dogs to be on the couch with me, I want to cuddle up with them, I want to enjoy my meals without worrying they must be hungry, I would hate to move my dogs that are sleeping/lying down in my way, I would rather walk around them, I want to greet my dogs after being gone to work for 9-10 hrs (my husband works from home so they are not alone during the day), etc. This is my own preference and my belief. If dogs are given appropriate socialization and if they have self-confidence through positive trainings, you will be able to avoid most of the problems. Aggression to its own owner is not a dog's fault. The owner failed to establish a trust-based relationship with the dog.

My dogs always look at me with excitement in their eyes, asking "what's next, Mama?" They still need, and keep needing trainings in some areas but it is fun to train them and see how they are improving.

debbieG, you said "the two main ones being when entering the house after being out and when we ate". I don't understand what you mean by 1) when entering the house after being out but I know what you mean by 2) when we ate.

Let me make a suggestion on 2). Train him "on your bed" command using treats. This is a very handy command. Bring out a mat or blanket and put it on the floor. Bring your dog onto it and have him sit and down, and reward. Repeat this and introduce a command "on your bed". Make it longer and longer. Have him "on your bed" while you eat something in front of him. When you finish eating, tell him "all done" and give him a treat.

When he masters this, he would be eventually able to stay on his bed until you finish your meal and tell him "all done". My dogs can wait for good one hour when we have company. However, as I said, we always feed them first.

I hope this will work for Kaiser. It will take time (maybe a few weeks) but be patient, because you will have the benefit for years!!

Hi Annie,

Thanks for your comment. It sounds like you have established a good trusty relationship with Joey and she accepted the new addition (baby) to the family very nicely. I don't understand the people who get rid of their dogs because they got a baby. You should be able to manage the change in your family if you have handled the dog properly and if you introduce the new addition in a proper manner. It is also true with adding another dog to your family.

Anyway, I am so pleased to hear that you and your family are enjoying Joey as a part of your family.

I have read your posting about scolding your toddler in front of your dog. I don't see any problem doing that, just from my own experience of raising dogs and children at the same time. My kids were 14, 8 and 6 years old when we got Max and Roxy (they are both gone now). Since we had and still have our dogs anywhere they want to be inside, they often happened to be at the scene where our kids were being scolded by us. Our dogs reaction is either feeling bad/afraid since they thought they did something wrong that made us angry, or feeling sympathetic to the kid being scolded. In fact, our kids and our dogs were good buddies so our dogs always tried to comfort our kids when they were down by licking their tears, etc. It never raised the dogs position in the family. We never placed them at the bottom of the family to start with. They knew they were different from the human family members. They are smarter than we think. They know who feed them and take them to walk and play with them. Don't worry about scolding your toddler in front of Joey. This is my 2 cents for the day.

Cheers!

Annie:

I would love to put some photos up but I don't know how.
Will you tell me how? You can send me a private message, or you can post it here.

I wanted to add one thing about scolding kids and dogs reaction. You see, my kids were already in school when we got Max and Roxy so our scolding was more like giving a lecture to them, instead of saying "No". It goes on and on sometimes so the doggies had to listen to that too if they wanted to be near us, human family members.

You are absolutely correct about not trusting dogs too much. They are dogs with sharp teeth and a strong jaw after all. They choose not to use those towards us people most of the time but they can absolutely capable to use those. All of us humans, both adults and kids, should keep that in mind and should not treat dogs in improper manners.

Looking forward to learning how to put photos up.

Hi DebbieG.

I am glad to hear that those issues with Kaiser are now under control. Yes, I also believe any dogs can learn what they can do and what they can't (boundaries and rules of each family) if you are consistent and patient.

My dog, Holly, also barks with joy when I come home. It doesn't bother me much so I didn't correct it. Being away for 9 hrs is a long time for her and she misses me so much although my husband is working from home and we have another dog. However, just a few days ago, I decided to turn around as I come inside the door and wait Holly to be quiet. She already learned it how it works. She gets my attention AND a little treat so she likes this way better

I repeatedly wrote that I don't use Alpha techniques but if they work for somebody to control his dog, that is fine. Our ultimate goal is to become capable of controlling our dogs so that they can fit better in our family and society and there will be less dogs to be abandoned and eventually killed.

I agree with you about training husbands. My husband is also too easy for my dogs. When I eat with him, Holly and Noah are on their beds and don't beg for food. However, when he eats lunch by himself, I think he lets Holly puts her head on his lap with a hope that some bread crumbs will be dropped. I need to train my husband more than my dogs

Anyway, I am going to try to attach a photo of my doggies and my grandson today. I don't know if it will work or not. Will see.

Hi Annie.

Yes, I managed to put up a photo. If you click on the link, I think the photo gets enlarged and you can see both of my dogs (Holly on the chair behind my grandson, and Noah on the floor).

Regarding Joey's behavior, I really think she is under challenged and under exercised now that your husband is not around. I understand your housing situation, it is hard to give Joey a separate and secure place of her own.

OK, my suggestions - I assume your baby take a nap for one hour or two, right? During that time, I know you have other chores you need to do, but lets think about things you can do to burn Joey's mental and physical energies out.

If the weather allows (I don't know how it is in Germany but here in Oregon it rains every single day) play fetch in your back yard for good 30 mins. If the weather is no good, it will be a challenge cause you said you only have on open space and that means the baby sleeps in the same space so you can't make much noise. But still we can do some play with Joey.

The game I do with Holly and Noah inside the house is quite a fun for both me and the doggies: I have my dogs wait in the living room. I have a bunch of stuffed toys and I take a basket full of toys to another room and scatter them all over. I come back to the doggies and say "Go get your toys". They bring a toy back to me and I give them a treat. We repeat this until all the toys are back in the basket. Dogs get some exercise by going back and forth the two rooms (and I usually put a big box on the hallway so that they have to jump it over each way) and they are happy and eager to play this game because I give them a tiny bit of treat every time they bring a toy to me.

I like reward based training because it is fun and motivating. It will take a little time for Joey to learn this game but "practice makes perfect". Work on it a little by little. Because a simple game like this consists of quite a few behaviors: First, Wait - then Go Look for a toy Jump the obstacle - Pick it up in her mouth - Come back to me with the toy - Jump the box again - Hand me the toy or Put it in a basket. They need to learn the sequence of those actions. They learned it for fun and a bit of treat!!

Start with "pick up the toy" with Joey. Have her sit in front of you, lay a toy in front of her. Say "Leave it". Give her a treat if she leaves it. Then tell her to "Pick up" (or OK) and give her a treat if she picks it up. You can also practice "Take it" and "Drop it" alternately. This kind of training (I think it's more like a game) doesn't need much space and not make much noise so it won't disturb your baby's nap but it does exercise Joey's brain and body.

As for you lie on the floor or let her on the bed, it is totally up to you. (Again, I am not a Alpha techniques believer). At least she needs a lot of attention now that your husband is gone.

Good luck and let us know Joey's progress

Blue:

Good to hear from you!

I can tell Blue is now much more confident and behaving very well. She has come a long way. Congratulations!

I told you one of my dogs, Holly, look a lot like Blue so I am posting her picture today (far left is Holly, Noah in the middle, and Lico, our foster dog).

Walking is another area that I am not so happy with the way my husband handles. He walks Holly and Noah together and they compete in pulling!

If I walk them separately, Holly is a very good loose leash walker. Noah still pulls but within my control. If they are together and come across another dog Noah gets all freaked out and Holly starts barking and I can not handle them. Therefore, I am walking the two dogs separately, or Holly and a foster dog together, and Noah by himself.

Since my husband walk them always together, Noah's walking training goes anywhere! In fact, I don't think he is even trying to correct Noah's pulling problem. Well, I am hoping someday, both of my boys (husband and Noah) will learn....

I really do think the biggest challenge in dog training is coordinating the entire family - and visiting friends. So everyone is sending the right signals and the dog doesn't get confused.

My husband isn't as active as I am - in reading and educating himself in dog behaviour/training, so he questions everything I'm doing - to the point of my great frustration! I try to have him read some of the information I've been reading (all kinds from alpha to just positive reinforcement methodology) and he falls asleep reading the books (can anyone say huge siiiiigh!).

As far as visiting friends, I ask them politely not to allow Blue to jump up. Two seconds later there's Blue up on them, giving them big sloppy kisses and the visitor giving all the pets and cuddles Blue could ever want - and me looking all the while like a tyrant trying to tell Blue to "off" and "sit"!! After having Blue successfully in a sit-stay before they come in... woe. Or I'll find some of my closest friends alone in the living room (while I left to go get snacks or go to the bathroom) with the dog halfway into their lap on the couch - front legs up on the visitor, one rear leg already up and the second poised to follow - a sheepish look on the human as well as the dogs face when they get caught in the act! Blue is too big for a lap dog!

Hmm... talk about the signifcant other wailing here, but it seems to me that there needs to be a book made for men where it's 'exciting' and 'macho' enough to keep their interest for longer than five minutes! Most men can 'control' a dog without making it 'heel' - I know my husband is double my weight and Blue's pulling barely moves him. So he just didn't consider it a problem to let her pull. Until he heard me out (in practical hysterics because my arm felt out of it's socket after a particularly daunting walk not long after we got Blue) saying that unless he was one hundred percent behind me in her training, we would never have children because he wasn't one bit interested in simply training the darned dog! (how could he ever be expected to help with children!? ).

Well...he is slowly learning now.

From what I remember you've already had children MaxHollyNoah so that probably won't work for you... but perhaps there's something else you could influence your hubby with ...

LOL

Blue